I couldnt find much on 5160 steel and from a knife makers point of view if you are saying youre the preferred supplier of special ops than I dont understand this choice in knife steel. The very good toughness of MagnaCut meant that it didnt chip despite this relatively high hardness and the difficulty of the test. Time and use have proven this to be quite accurate. However, even steel with the best corrosion resistance can rust without proper care. This is a virtually stain-proof steel suitable for all sorts of aquatic environments. You can see micrographs of different knife steels to compare their carbides in this article. YMMV HAP40 I feel like it sharpens as easy as D2. 1. Some steels are more difficult to manufacture for the steel company or have more expensive alloying elements so the cost is increased. 7:00am-5:00pm, 10am-7pm Tuesday - Friday The brand Bark River uses A2 in many models. Both steels are popular among knife manufacturers and both have their strengths and weaknesses. Heres a brief description of their impact on the resulting steels properties. Should you continue to scroll further, you may find yourself lost in a seemingly endless list of knife steel wealth and knowledge. Could you please compare it to Shirogami #1 and Agomi #1, I didnt find anything in terms of grain size ragarding thoese steels on the Internert. I will be focusing on CATRA edge retention which measures abrasive wear of knives. On the spreadsheet, youve grouped AUS-8 and 8Cr13MoV. In my experience, it will tarnish and discolor quickly. 14C28N steel also has excellent wear resistance due to its high chromium content. I would suggest adding a second axis to the ratings charts that show the data values that the 0-10 ratings are based on (unnotched charpy impact energy, 1% saltwater , Total cards cut, etc.). Thank you for putting this together, incredibly useful! Only a few years ago Elmax was pricey, but competition has driven it down to reasonable levels, making it a decent value. GearJunkie Copyright 2013 2023. Custom maker Brian Trudeau uses Nitro V, and Massdrops Perpetua design is the first production knife to sport it. Finally, in this 14c28n vs d2, we hope you get the right one. Some of our partners may process your data as a part of their legitimate business interest without asking for consent. Thank you. document.getElementById( "ak_js" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Enter your email address to subscribe to this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. However, it can be somewhat complicated because an edge can dull from many causes wear, micro-chipping, deformation, or corrosion. looking at getting a nice larger flipper for a little under 100 AUD. If you need something that soaks up abuse, try 3V. Im a layman trying to understand what makes the best steel for my use. Plus the charts get messier, and I dont always have data for a wide range of hardness values. Im looking forward to seeing if it does as well in full production. Would be great if some manufactures changed their steels based on this information. This steel is quite corrosion resistant and sharpens easily. These steels favor edge retention over all else. Take a look at this edge retention test. Hi there, Let's compare 14c28n steel with other steels, and for this, I use four criteria; Edge Retention, Corrosion resistance, Ease of Sharpness, and Toughness and on a scale of 1-10 (10 being the highest) let's see the performance of each steel. Pretty interesting that regrinding a knife you already have can seemingly take its performance to that of significantly better steels. Fine-carbide knife steels. Low Carbon steels like AEB-L wont hold up to wood cutting even though it can hit 64 hard, it just doesnt have enough Carbon.. D2 has been around for more than 20 years, an eternity in metallurgy terms. This showed that XHP and ZDP-189 have significantly lower corrosion resistance than other stainless steels. Actually, Id be thinking 14C28N, but I want to leave stainless out. There are also hardness/toughness and hardness/TCC charts.but no tables backing this charts. Poor heat treatment can make a knife too hard, too soft, hard to sharpen, easy to deform, or cause other issues. I mean the box cutter type, with the replaceable trapezoidal blades. 3) catra is (as far as i know) the only accredited (iso/en) testing method. The bump in hardness comes from precipitation of fine carbides in the steel, read an article I wrote on budget steels here, https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/05/26/new-micrographs-of-42-knife-steels/, https://i0.wp.com/knifesteelnerds.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/stainless-toughness-10-19-21.jpg?w=757&ssl=1, https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/10/14/corrosion-resistance-testing/, https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/03/02/cpm-spy27-experiments-toughness-corrosion-resistance-and-more/, https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/12/03/cryogenic-part1/, https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/12/10/cryogenic-processing-of-steel-part-2/, https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/12/17/cryogenic-processing-of-steel-part-3/, The Pros And Cons Of Stainless Steel Copper And Aluminum Brewing Equipment SanctuaryBrewCo, https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/05/01/testing-the-edge-retention-of-48-knife-steels/. Below are some great ways to make your knife your own. My favorites of the high edge retention group are Vanadis 8 and CPM-10V. Spyderco offers this as the high-end steel for many of its evergreen blades, like the Paramilitary 2, Paramilitary 3, Manix 2, and Native 5. can you strike twice as fast with the knife? Below I have shown the difference in carbide volume between AEB-L, CPM-10V, and Rex 121 to get an idea of how much more carbide there is in the high edge retention steels. It isnt impossible, but contrast may not be very good and the austenitizing temperatures of the two steels arent very compatible. CPM-S90V, CPM-S110V, CPM-10V, and Bohler K390 each fit in this category. But keep in mind that no steel is perfect for everything. Sign up to receive GearJunkie content direct to your inbox. 2) you do not go into the sharpening in much detail. I would also suggest adding a hardness rating to the ratings tables that currently include toughness, edge retention, and corrosion resistance ratings. I just want to thank you for all the work you do for the community and the world at large. Ease of sharpening refers to how difficult it is to remove material with a sharpening stone. The stainless steel rating. This is one of the better steels on the market. Opinel Number 9 in carbon steel, and a Cold Steel Tanto Lite in their stainless steel. There are significant differences between them because 14C28N is stainless steel, while D2 steel is a semi-stainless tool steel. 14C28N steel is known to offer among the best if not the best toughness in knife steels out there. In addition, According to Sandvik, 14C28N steel is easy to work on, reducing production costs and hence affordable knives. There are a few aspects to your question, I think. Other factors include how thick your edge is, how dull your knife was at the start, the nature of the heat treatment, and what youre using to sharpen your knife. imo o lot depends on how the blade is sharpened. A new steel from Crucible, SPY27 launched in 2020 in the Spyderco Native 5and Para 3. 1) the cvn number is just that, a number. Its very corrosion-resistant and quite tough. But the true calling card of INFI is its insane toughness. Carpenter produces this powder steel. However, high wear resistance means that abrasives are used up more rapidly, more careful grinding is necessary to avoid overheating, finishing and polishing is much more time consuming, etc. Very obtuse edges resist chipping better but dont hold their edge as long and dont cut as well. Its probably in between Vanadis 8 and 10V. In some previous articles I have shown the balance between my toughness and edge retention measurements such as in the following chart, where the high alloy non-stainless are in orange and the blue are stainless: However, one issue with these charts are that difference in toughness is that a linear scale for toughness is a bit misleading for visualizing practical toughness differences. If you shop for knives based strictly on steel, you might be disappointed. Im not hating on 80crv2 , Ive used it. This is an American-made powder steel. This is a very important factor when selecting a steel for your knife blade, especially if you plan on spending a lot of time outdoors in an area with high humidity.. S30v is a higher ranked steel and considered a true Stainless Steel, with a 14% . The knife does dull faster. There is one exception: Bucks 420HC (Buck and onlyBuck) is produced using a proprietary heat treatment. This particular steel grade allows for the highest attainable hardness without. Five years ago, S30V had a premium price. The difference in properties between 14C28N and D2 steel is very clear. Contact me if you have any questions or input! Even metallurgists can have a difficult time estimating properties just based on the elements. You cant look at only the chromium content of the steel to know the level of corrosion resistance. Damascus or pattern welded steel is a result of combining two steels together. Did you change the estimate based on more testing? D2 steel offers better edge retention and wear resistance than 14C28N. Using controlled furnace heat treating resulted in toughness around 23-28 ft-lbs at 61-62 Rc, while the knifemaker heat treated specimens were 7 ft-lbs or below. . 8Cr13MoV is comparable to the Japanese AUS-8 but containing slightly higher carbon content. Anyway, buff up the O1v and it cuts leather easily. I used to work for a company that did reclaimed old growth lumber (swamp cedar, old growth pine and oak beams, etc) and we went through planer blades twice as fast as the cabinetry shop next door (turns out the neighbors like it when you put all the loud businesses together and far away), which mostly cut fresh cherry, oak, maple, hickory etc. In many cases, the D2 edge sharpness may last a bit longer. When we plot toughness vs edge retention on a log scale instead we get a straight line that is a better visualization of toughness differences. Steels that can be high in edge retention and toughness are desirable for general use knives. It is certainly possible for a knifemaker or heat treating company to do a heat treatment that will have suboptimal properties. 14c28n vs D2 Steel. Here is the article by Larrin on 48 steels. For instance, if a 35 edge in 1095 steel at 58 Rc provides appropriate toughness for planing hardwood, what edge angle in, say, AEB-L at 62 Rc might give us a comparable effective toughness? (I think the 420HC estimate in that post was based on simulation or computer modeling, since you didnt spray testing any of the 400 series.) I also added a few more steels in this study. A few steels have been added since such as MagnaCut and M398. Almost all of the knives in my EDC rotation are Spydercos, in exotic steels. In thick forms, like a fixed blade, 1095 isa tough, low-cost steel. If the knife youre looking at has a 154CM blade, youre fine. . The reason is because sharpening and edge geometry will also greatly control properties. Spyderco has their own salt spray test setup to determine the corrosion resistance and they determined that MagnaCut is sufficiently corrosion resistant for their salt series of knives. As of November 2020, this is Spyderco-exclusive steel. I think this website is aimed at dispelling these kinds of assertions. As wear resistance is increased the differences between conventional and powder metallurgy steels become greater. I can also say from personal experience that marine grade plywood will chaw up your saw blade and battery a lot quicker than standard plywood, but that probably says more about the glue that was used than the wood. Rather than upgrade from D2 to M4 or S30V just drop the angle from 40 degrees to 30 degrees. Kershaw, Spyderco and Schrade are among some of the popular users of this steel.. 14C28N. I also have meat cleaver 1,4116 ,58RC that I order and was looking up if its a good steel or did waist money and need to return it. Things are similar with resistance to chipping and edge deformation. D2 knives, on the other hand, are challenging to sharpen. This can turn the ultra corrosion resistant LC200N or Vanax into a normal stainless steel that will rust with only 1% saltwater. VG-1 is a non-powder steel made by Japanese specialty steelmaker Takefu. To view the purposes they believe they have legitimate interest for, or to object to this data processing use the vendor list link below. 420HC doesnt hold an edge well, but its relatively stain-resistant and tough. For the steels that I rated I give them a single rating rather than a range based on different heat treatments that can be performed. On the other hand, 9cr18mov has a slightly higher molybdenum content which gives it higher hardness from quenching and helps drive carbide formation. This is about comparing steels to each other rather than a limitation of an individual steel. It mainly made for knife and it high in Chromium for excellent corrosion resistance. I think you wrote an article a bit ago on CTS-XHP and concluded that like D2 and ZDP-189 it wasnt really stainless (although stainless is a somewhat arbitrary line). Alpha Knife Supply sells 26C3 btw. While 14C28N and D2 are both pretty to look at, buyers always regard one over the other. D2 steel also offers similar toughness levels as the 14c28n steel, so both aren't really prone to chipping with proper use. So, its hard steel is easy to sharpen. Water is a severe quenchant that can often lead to warping or cracking. No mainstream companies use SM100, and the niche makers that do usually charge more than $1,000 for knives with SM100 blades. Powder metallurgy steels with low vanadium content like CPM-1V and Z-Tuff/CD#1 have extremely high toughness. LC 200N is an elite performer, with high hardness, high toughness, and off-the-charts corrosion resistance. That comes with an excellent return of experience that makes it ideal for the manufacturer of outdoor and tactical knife blades. There are so many interactions between them that predictions are difficult without modeling software. The choice between the two depends on your knife needs. High Alloy Tool Steel and High Speed Steel Ratings. This is a non-powder Japanese steel used primarily in Spyderco knives. it seems like all the pieces are in place to develop an algorithm for this. Which knife for best? LC200N has similar properties to those two but with saltwater levels of corrosion resistance. Very much appreciate you. Hammering through hickory, digging at roots in sandy soil, and cutting around bone did nothing to chip, dent, or roll the edge of my 3V knives. Therefore I will be showing the ratings of the steels graphically in terms of toughness-edge retention balance, where steels that are high and to the right have the best combination, and you choose the steel based on the level of toughness or edge retention necessary for the knife. FRN These are Chinese-produced steels that recently started showing up in Chinese-made knives. And before you start arguing on behalf of the steel you think might be perfect, let me remind you that if your knife isnt perfect for a task, youll need to get another one that is! Its very tough and exceptionally corrosion-resistant. However, in our testing there is a reduction in toughness by using the high temperature range rather than the low temperature range, such as was found with CPM-CruWear (Z-Wear) or CPM-10V. VG 10 Steel, https://knifebasics.com/author/freelancer/, How To Choose Between The 14C28N And The D2, 14c28n Steel Is Good for Knife? However, this edge retention comes at the cost of sharpening ease for D2. But SM100 is not widely available, hard to heat treat and grind, and exceptionally expensive. S45VN If you want to check the quality of my work, just search for The EDC Bible on Amazon. Therefore you will use it for a long time without requiring frequent sharpening. Steels like CPM MagnaCut, CPM M4, CPM 4V, and CPM CruWear fit in this category. Stainless steels usually top out around 64 Rc and may require careful heat treating to get there. My name is Jonathan M, and Im a passionate Mechanical Engineer, a knife enthusiast, and the author of this website. If the properties of a knife meet your knife needs and it has the above characteristics, then it qualifies as a quality knife. The highest edge retention steel was Rex 121 which was at 70 Rc in combination with lots of high hardness vanadium carbides. There are a few other complicating factors such as carbon in solution and plate martensite, especially in low alloy steels such as described in this article. Start comparing steels. CPM-3V is a powder metallurgy contender in this category. Chris Reeves version, which is about two points less hard than others, is quite good. That is professionaly popular such as the Japanese designation SKD11, Uddeholm Sverker 21, German designation 1.2379, Hitachi SLD and others. In use, its very similar to 440C and VG-10. have extremely high edge retention. But which? Uddeholm lists it as somewhat worse in toughness than A2 but somewhat better in wear resistance. Type 8Cr, the more common formulation, is worse than AUS-8: a little more prone to corrosion and not quite as hard. CPM154 is a truly superior steel. Also known as Z-Finit, Zapp produces this steel in America. But I think it would have much higher toughness than any of the steels on the chart. S35VN False treatment and geometry upheld by Made in USA is like buying 8Cr from China (except late A.G) My personal experience tops with Vanadis 4E, CPM-M4, RWL-34 and the likes. Hi Larrin Youve occasionally mentioned cryo treatment in your posts, including here with LC200N. CPM-S90V is my favorite in the high edge retention category because of its decent toughness. In nitrogen steels, nitrogen is used as the iron-hardener instead of carbon, thus limiting the possibility of rusting. Tanto And while youll find it mostly in expensive knives, quite a few approachable M390 blades exist. Wear resistance comes from hardness and carbides, hard particles formed between carbon and another element like Vanadium or Tungsten. A2 is a tool steel renowned for toughness. Check out theGiantMouse Vox/Anso ACE Iona Liner Lock Knife at $99, for example. ApexUltra is a steel that we are working on that had excellent properties in small batch production (50 lbs). I made most of my leather knives from O1v (O1 with .20V) that I hold at 1475 for 15 mins and quench in 120-130 F AAA oil and Kevin Cashen is where those parameters came from btw. In general, higher carbon steels have higher edge retention but lower toughness. I see very little about cryo outside of journal articles, and I wonder which knifemakers use it. Extra kudos for your mathmatical steel composition to edge holding model thats really impressive work. Both knives were chopped through a nail. The old rule in steels used to be corrosion resistance, toughness, or hardness choose two. But SM100 (the trade name for Nitinol 60) threw that out the window when introduced to the cutlery world. It gets exceptionally sharp, a nod to its origins as a razorblade steel. It has a lower hardness and edge retention as compared to the 9Cr knife. If you purchase this types of knife, without any hassle you can easily re-sharpening. Everything you need to know to buy the right knife for the job. The 10V specimens tempered at 1000F were 4-5 ft-lbs while the specimens tempered at 4-500F were 7-8 ft-lbs. This doesnt necessarily mean they have terrible toughness, but they have limitations. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. Its exceedingly tough and relatively hard, but its not stainless. Who looking for latest, high carbon, then the Kershaw Natrix Copper Pocketknife. We all have our preference, but overall, preference leans towards the pocket knife with a clip. Editors note: This article was first published in May 2015 and was most recently updated on May 25, 2020. Though technically not a stainless steel at least 14% chromium, and D2 usually has 12% its relatively corrosion-resistant. Only a skilled blacksmith can make Damascus steels, so they tend to be expensive. Other factors that can be added in are corrosion resistance, hardness, and cost. 1060 And for high toughness you want little or no carbide. The critical difference between these two sheets of steel is their corrosion resistance. SUS410 Like 154CM, there is a newer version, S35VN, which shares many of the same attributes as S30V but is easier to craft into a knife thanks to niobium. This list is not exhaustive, so check out some of our rating tables for more information on whatever steel youre interested in. Spyderco has produced several production knives with Maxamet, and the steel debuted on the ZT0888. Vanax gives up some toughness and hardness vs MagnaCut for saltwater levels of corrosion resistance. Spyderco and Cold Steel have used it, though Cold Steel recently switched to S35VN due to availability concerns. It has an HRc over 70, usually even harder than Maxamet. Also I notice 1095 looks like another underperformer as there doesnt look to be any reason to use it over 5160 which I cant imagine is any more expensive than 1095. Spyderco is the only production company using this steel, though Michael Gavik of Gavko knives produced a number of customs in LC 200N. If youre having trouble finding the steel you want, see if another manufacturer makes something much like it. Its possible that there are steel manufacturers with better processing which would lead to an even carbide distribution but I cant say that without seeing it for myself. Combination of knife steel properties. It should get an ultra-sharp edge for easy cutting, hold the edge for long for easy maintenance, and have a sturdy and ergonomic handle for comfort and to prevent accidents. Its in the same class as Vanadis 8 and 10V. Three main characteristics differentiate steels from one another: corrosion resistance, hardness, and toughness. When describing the characteristics of a steel, a few common attributes are commonly talked about. The performance of these blades are equally admirable. third and most important is what happened to the burr. Below shows charts summarizing tests of different steels for the major categories discussed so far, low alloy steels, high alloy non-stainless steels, and stainless steels. Because of the material difference, the blades differ in toughness, edge retention, corrosion resistance, and ease of sharpening. Thanks in advance, Simon, For hard use everyday cutting in a packing company, Everything from fome, cardboard, tape, thick plastics, And plastic wrap that is against metal. and yet millons of knives are being made out of 1.4116 (aisi 420mov?) Corrosion is not only cosmetic. most knives are being made out of these and other mediocre steels like 14c28n, 420j2, 425m. Some of these steels also have vanadium (CruForgeV) or tungsten (Blue Super, V-Toku2, 1.2519) for increased wear resistance. Though technically not a stainless steel at least 14% chromium, and D2 usually has 12% it's relatively corrosion-resistant. Knife steel nerds have a great write up on 14c28n nik_was 2 yr. ago Oftentimes steels that are reported to be difficult to sharpen are in fact improperly heat treated and challenging to deburr. Very acute edges are more brittle but remain sharp for longer and cut very well. Privacy Policy. Its not a regression line, it is just a line through the best steels. Should have a first draft by the end of next week. The heat treatment techniques used by the manufacturer as well as the design of the blade itself play a huge role in the ultimate outcome of knife performance! At the end of the article I gave a list of reasons why I hadnt made my own ratings chart, two big reasons were: 1) I didnt yet have articles explaining what edge retention and toughness even is (this was early on in Knife Steel Nerds), 2) I didnt have good experimental numbers on many steels. Most production knives are more than thick enough at the edge to accommodate a regrind to significantly improve performance, and its a lot cheaper than buying a new knife a lot of the time. The best steels with balanced properties include 4V/Vanadis4E, CPM-CruWear, and CPM-M4. These steels are the good old hard-working steels. And given the recipe, it has a low number of carbides, the extra-hard microcrystals in steel that provide the hardness necessary for a stable and sharp edge. the problem is in the innumerable combinations of grades, grains sizes and coatings available. There is an acceptable range for every element so this doesnt mean that 1084 will always have exactly 0.84% carbon. Ive seen more talk and some articles regarding the use of AI to come up with new potential drug molecules, polymeric materials, etc. Stainless steels are another subset of high alloy tool steels that have enough chromium in them to have stainless levels of corrosion resistance. MagnaCut Become a patron and gain access to awesome rewards including early access to articles or a Knife Steel Nerds mug! Sharpening the knives might be challenging, but the D2 knife is high quality and affordable. The Vargo Sobata 398 is unlike any other knife on this list. It would be interesting to try to develop a conversation between /geometry/edge retention/toughness, so we could say e.g. While quite soft, the metal cuts even when it seems dull because, at the microscopic level, it has a roughness that performs much like a serration. I was guessing 5.5 based on your rating of CPM-154. Toughness is a measure of how much resistance a steel has to fracturing. how much more can you bend/pry with it? you can easily buy a $500 knive made out of 14c28n, which has nothing in it besides cr and a trace of ni. Different companies can vary some between each other making the same product, while a single company is going to be more consistent. Im going to give the ratings first and then give more explanation about how the ratings were created. 440A has more chromium in solution along with a small addition of Mo, but has significant amounts of carbide so the two are an interesting comparison. These steels are typically used by forging bladesmiths, traditional folders, and some production fixed blades. 2. 420HC, 420, and 5160 all offer off-the-charts toughness. One important concept I want to hammer home is that there isnt one property that is most important. Even it enhances corrosion resistance and wear resistance.

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